Posts: 409 / Nickname: bv / Registered: January 17, 2002 4:28 PM
Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 22, 2010 11:00 PM
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In this short article, Sean Landis gives his reasons for being tough on sloppy resumes:
http://www.artima.com/articles/are_sloppy_resumes_ok.html How do you feel about sloppy developer résumés? Do you feel differently about testers? Managers? Where do you draw the line when it comes to sloppiness? |
Posts: 135 / Nickname: fsommers / Registered: January 19, 2002 7:24 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 23, 2010 8:15 PM
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I agree with Sean's point here.
I would also include, however, other forms of communication with potential hires in this category, too: Emails, phone messages, etc. All of those reveal aspects of the candidate about the four character traits Sean points out here, including carelessness. |
Posts: 40 / Nickname: ntrif / Registered: June 30, 2004 1:10 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 3:06 AM
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I have somewhat mixed feelings about the topic. On one hand, the skill of writing a resume has little to do with the skills of a good developer. On another hand, hiring is a game with pretty well-known (if sometimes silly) rules, and things like writing a good resume and dressing up for an interview do show that a candidate is ready to go out of their comfort zone to play by the rules.
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Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 5:39 AM
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Hi Nemanja,
> On one > hand, the skill of writing a resume has little to do with > the skills of a good developer. Only if you do not think that communicating well is a skill of a good developer. Telling a career story well is difficult; so is describing a piece of software one has written. In both cases, the person is intimate with the subject and ought to be able to do a good job. > On another hand, hiring is > a game with pretty well-known (if sometimes silly) rules, > and things like writing a good resume and dressing up for > an interview do show that a candidate is ready to go out > of their comfort zone to play by the rules. This is true, but it is not the point of the article. Communicating well is a powerful tool that is universally useful to the developers and their employers. The ability to wear a tie is only marginally useful, and only in certain environments. The idea of following the rules, or compliance, is an interesting topic in the hiring process. I'm curious if anyone has stories to tell. I've been surprised by people who irrationally refuse to comply to the norms of the situation. What's the story and what conclusions could you draw from the behavior? |
Posts: 13 / Nickname: schluehk / Registered: January 20, 2005 5:46 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 8:23 AM
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I generally agree, but the complaints are a bit vague, which might be inevitable though for not ending up with the receipt list, which can't work.
I often have the opposite impression that many job offers are written by noobs who don't know what they are talking about. My highlight in 2009 was a demand for a C++ programmer with X years of experience in tools such as Virtual and Template. Since hiring is so deadly serious for many of us, including myself, it is quite naturally a rich source of unintentional humour. |
Posts: 128 / Nickname: watson / Registered: September 7, 2005 3:37 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 6:32 AM
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It seems to me that while it's good advice to the job seeker to make your resume as well written as it can be, it isn't a good idea for employers to dismiss candidates because of a poor resume.
If you are familiar with the concept of value investing, the idea is similar: you make money off of exploiting inefficiencies in the market. The market in this case is the market for labor. In general, those candidates with ugly resumes are going to be ignored by most other employers. While most of these poor resumes are likely poor candidates, there may be a few gems in that pool. Those gems will have less opportunities and will probably be less demanding. In other words, people who are highly skilled at finding work are not necessarily skilled in that work. A lot of people (e.g. me) detest the job search process. A smart employer will look past superficial details and try to find the best employees. Writing a resume is tough, especially for a technical position. You have to cram enough stuff in there so that it meets the check-list of the HR staff (or software) but don't put so much that it looks silly. I used to put all the tools I've ever used in my resume (at the advice of an HR professional) and was repeatedly viewed with suspicion by my technical interviewers who didn't believe I used so many different things in such a short time span (and told me so.) What to do? You can't get your resume in front of smart technical people without making your resume abhorrent to those same people. When I look at a resume, I'm mainly concerned with job history. No other useful information is reliably gleaned from resumes. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: funbunny / Registered: September 23, 2003 5:08 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 6:39 AM
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> In general, those candidates with
> ugly resumes are going to be ignored by most other > employers. While most of these poor resumes are likely > poor candidates, there may be a few gems in that pool. > Those gems will have less opportunities and will probably > y be less demanding. I have, at times, taken the view that a resume should read like a documentary, and prepared mine as such. The reasoning being: I want to winnow out those companies/hirers too lazy to make an effort to read and digest who I am; after all, I'm hiring them to be my boss. I don't want to work for a bunch of lazy slackers. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Sometimes they bullshit about what they're doing well enough to get me to say yes. That's happened less and less over time. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 7:06 AM
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Hi James,
> A smart > employer will look past superficial details and try to > find the best employees. The question is whether the details are superficial or significant. Most often they are significant. My experience is that it is rare to find a sloppy resume that otherwise has great potential. When it comes along, the smart employer recognizes it and takes a chance so as the leverage the situation you describe. Anyway, I am not saying discount a candidate on a sloppy resume alone. Sloppiness is nearly always accompanied by other problems. > What to do? You can't get your resume in front of smart > technical people without making your resume abhorrent to > those same people. When I look at a resume, I'm mainly > concerned with job history. It is not a given that providing the HR/software the required buzzwords necessitates a sloppy resume. I would say that if technical interviewers are offended by the buzzword section, they don't understand their job. That said, there are good and bad ways to write the buzzword section. I'm not necessarily recommending this, but one clever resume had a section titled Keywords with a note saying something like, "This is the section of the resume required to get through filtering software." > No other useful information > is reliably gleaned from resumes. Job history is definitely most important but I would never say there isn't useful information in the other parts of the resume. There nearly always is, although often not what the candidate intended. No information in a resume, including the job history, can be called reliable. At best it is lossy, at worse, it is a lie. |
Posts: 128 / Nickname: watson / Registered: September 7, 2005 3:37 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 8:33 AM
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> Hi James,
> > > A smart > > employer will look past superficial details and try to > > find the best employees. > > The question is whether the details are superficial or > significant. Most often they are significant. My > experience is that it is rare to find a sloppy resume that > otherwise has great potential. When it comes along, the > smart employer recognizes it and takes a chance so as the > leverage the situation you describe. > > Anyway, I am not saying discount a candidate on a sloppy > resume alone. Sloppiness is nearly always accompanied by > other problems. I guess it kind of depends on what you mean by sloppy. I've seen a lot of terrible looking resumes (too long, too short, odd structure) that were otherwise clean. I was looking at my own resume recently and noticed that I had trailed off in my objective statement. I'm not sure if I sent it out like that but it's possible. The thing is that I'm prone to make those kinds of errors. I've developed processed and systems that I use to (almost always) guarantee that those kinds of errors will be caught in my technical tasks. I haven't done the same for my resume writing process. I suppose I could but I'd just rather do something more intellectually stimulating. If you are looking for a very pedantic person who never makes errors, then maybe your process is the right one. I personally just think that resumes are mostly worthless other than getting an idea of whether the person claims to have the kind of background needed so that we don't waste more time than necessary talking to unqualified candidates. |
Posts: 1 / Nickname: tsmets / Registered: April 3, 2002 8:21 PM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
August 9, 2010 2:03 AM
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This just reminds me the discussion I had with my wife a few days ago ...
I cannot write without making hundreds of mistakes (spelling / grammatical / ...) She does not manage to have a proper hand writting (even on a paper with horizontal lines, she is not capable of writting straight). What's more important ... ? 30 years ago, we would have needed special trainings to be sellable on the market place. Today, in this computer age, we live rather well (as long as I can activate the spelling & grammar checker and as long as she is not asked to summarize idea on a sheet of papers with a pencil). :) Now a sloppy résumé should be a worry, as well as wearing unapproprriate clothing ... but using this as an argument to eliminate definitively a candidate... There are no perfect candidates ... |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
August 9, 2010 5:00 AM
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Hi Thomas,
> Now a sloppy résumé should be a worry, as well as wearing > unapproprriate clothing ... but using this as an argument > to eliminate definitively a candidate... > > There are no perfect candidates ... Agreed. I think I said it before, but a resume would have be to pretty bad to eliminate a candidate on the grounds of sloppiness alone. Fortunately, sloppy resumes nearly always have other issues. Sloppiness is an excellent warning sign. |
Posts: 1 / Nickname: mfinger / Registered: June 29, 2010 4:34 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
August 20, 2010 6:41 AM
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I think it's pretty funny (or sad?) that in any other professional trade this question wouldn't even be asked. Why do IT people seem to think they're different or exempt from the basic rules of business?
I've had people show up for interviews wearing sandals, jeans, and t-shirts. I dress up nicer for date night with my wife (and we've been married while too!!) Why? Because I respect her, and I believe it's not too hard to ask the same for a job applicant too (resume, interview dress, etc.) |
Posts: 37 / Nickname: miata71 / Registered: March 29, 2006 6:09 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 23, 2010 10:07 PM
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Do you want developers who are great at making resumes, or great at coding?
Can I write the next next idiotic Artima post on hiring? I'll advocate that you not hire developers if the color of their interview clothes doesn't properly complement their eyes and complexion. I mean, just like a resume, if they want to show knowledge and experience they could research and do that, right? |
Posts: 409 / Nickname: bv / Registered: January 17, 2002 4:28 PM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 11:51 AM
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> Can I write the next next idiotic Artima post on hiring?
> I'll advocate that you not hire developers if the color > r of their interview clothes doesn't properly complement > their eyes and complexion. I mean, just like a resume, if > they want to show knowledge and experience they could > research and do that, right? One thing that may be getting lost here is that the resume screen is the first barrier for a candidate to get across. After that is likely a phone interview, and only if they get past that would they have an opportunity to come on site for an interview (which would be the first time anyone would see how well their clothes matches their eye color). I think Sean is simply saying that a resume that communicates poorly is enough justification to disqualify someone at the resume screening phase. It is expensive to have qualified employees doing phone interviews and more expensive to bring someone in for an on-site interview, so companies need to prune out by screening resumes as best they can. That said, I do remember one company where we had been interviewing candidates. Everyone always wore a tie to the interview and one day some guy came in without a tie. What I noticed is that we noticed. We talked about it. I'm sure it wasn't a disqualifying move had there not been other problems, but we felt it a sign he didn't take us seriously. (Another sign was that he took a cell phone call during the interview.) So I think clothes matter too, not in the fashion sense, but in the demonstrating some level of professionalism sense. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: funbunny / Registered: September 23, 2003 5:08 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 4:12 PM
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> That said, I do remember one company where we had been
> interviewing candidates. Everyone always wore a tie to the > interview and one day some guy came in without a tie. What > I noticed is that we noticed. We talked about it. I'm sure > it wasn't a disqualifying move had there not been other > problems, but we felt it a sign he didn't take us > seriously. I'd wager there are more places where the converse is true. |
Posts: 26 / Nickname: cpurdy / Registered: December 23, 2004 0:16 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 9:16 AM
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> Do you want developers who are great at making resumes, or
> great at coding? > Can I write the next next idiotic Artima post on hiring? > I'll advocate that you not hire developers if the color of > their interview clothes doesn't properly complement their > eyes and complexion. I mean, just like a resume, if they > want to show knowledge and experience they could research > and do that, right? There are no hard and fast rules, but I've hired quite a few people, and I've almost always regretted the hires that didn't demonstrate respectfulness in their dress, resume, whatever, because ultimately the same habits appeared in their code. That is to say that I disagree with your response, although I am not implying that you match the category of people whom I am describing. FWIW. At the end of the day, the people who care are the ones cleaning up the messes of the people who don't care, and figuring out which ones care and which ones lack the capacity to care is the first order of business when hiring. If for no other reason than this: It's not fair to the rest of your team that _does_ care to pollute the team with someone who doesn't care. Peace, Cameron Purdy | Oracle Coherence http://coherence.oracle.com/ |
Posts: 7 / Nickname: spike / Registered: August 24, 2004 2:43 PM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 0:37 AM
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> Do you want developers who are great at making resumes, or
> great at coding? > > Can I write the next next idiotic Artima post on hiring? > I'll advocate that you not hire developers if the color > r of their interview clothes doesn't properly complement > their eyes and complexion. I mean, just like a resume, if > they want to show knowledge and experience they could > research and do that, right? About to register a company and I can tell you I won't be hiring anyone (developer/graphic designer/web designer) who dresses like a clown. I don't care if the guy has 80 years experience, has worked on a million apps. that relate to my niche market and has ties with the who's who of the corporate world. If this person cannot reflect a certain level of professionalism I don't want him involved in my company - especially as a start-up in which virtually every employee is likely to be client-facing. |
Posts: 13 / Nickname: schluehk / Registered: January 20, 2005 5:46 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 0:53 AM
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> About to register a company and I can tell you I won't be
> hiring anyone (developer/graphic designer/web designer) > who dresses like a clown. Could you be a little more detailed about the dress-code of clowns? This is just too interesting. |
Posts: 7 / Nickname: spike / Registered: August 24, 2004 2:43 PM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 1:13 AM
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> > About to register a company and I can tell you I won't
> be > > hiring anyone (developer/graphic designer/web designer) > > who dresses like a clown. > > Could you be a little more detailed about the dress-code > of clowns? This is just too interesting. Lol, I din't mean this in the literal sense. Was responding specifically to Morgan's point: "...not hire developers if the color > r of their interview clothes doesn't properly complement > their eyes and complexion." There were hints of exaggerations and sarcasm in his statement, so I tried to use an equally extreme example in response. What I actually meant is if I advertise a post and the candidate comes to the interview dressed in jeans and a wife beater, that interview will not last more than 10 minutes and I *will* definitely disregard all the achievements listed in his/her resume. |
Posts: 13 / Nickname: schluehk / Registered: January 20, 2005 5:46 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 1:27 AM
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> What I actually meant is if I advertise a post and the
> candidate comes to the interview dressed in jeans and a > wife beater, that interview will not last more than 10 > minutes and I *will* definitely disregard all the > achievements listed in his/her resume. Even if it is a 120$ Gucci jeans combined with a 350$ Armani jacket? |
Posts: 7 / Nickname: spike / Registered: August 24, 2004 2:43 PM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 2:11 AM
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> > What I actually meant is if I advertise a post and the
> > candidate comes to the interview dressed in jeans and a > > wife beater, that interview will not last more than 10 > > minutes and I *will* definitely disregard all the > > achievements listed in his/her resume. > > Even if it is a 120$ Gucci jeans combined with a 350$ > Armani jacket? Oh, in that case... Only if he can provide a receipt that all the hip hop attire he's worn is designer - that would help him identify perfectly with our intended corporate clients. As long as the Armani jacket is actually a sports jumper and not a formal blazer. The price tag of his wife-beater in this case will also carry a lot of weight in our short-listing process :o) |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: funbunny / Registered: September 23, 2003 5:08 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 5:50 AM
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> What I actually meant is if I advertise a post and the
> candidate comes to the interview dressed in jeans and a > wife beater, that interview will not last more than 10 > minutes and I *will* definitely disregard all the > achievements listed in his/her resume. I'll agree with that. OTOH, the remark which started this sub-thread was specific to not wearing a tie (and suit, most likely). I've had more than a few interviews where I was the only one in the room with suit and tie. Was I being disrespected???????????????? |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 26, 2010 6:06 AM
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> I've had more than a few interviews where I
> was the only one in the room with suit and tie. Was I > being disrespected???????????????? It can be very uncomfortable arriving at an interview realizing you are inappropriately dressed. I think it shows respect for a company or recruiter to tell the candidate what the dress expectations are for the interview. Things are pretty informal where I work. We don't judge interview dress unless it is clearly inappropriate. One candidate looked like he had just driven over from a biker bar. Suits are fine but look out of place. I will often ask a male candidate if he'd like to stow the coat and tie. Just a couple of weeks ago, one fellow ditched his tie up front when he realized the situation. If he hadn't mentioned it to me, no one would have noticed. |
Posts: 7 / Nickname: spike / Registered: August 24, 2004 2:43 PM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 27, 2010 0:43 AM
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> I'll agree with that. OTOH, the remark which started this
> sub-thread was specific to not wearing a tie (and suit, > most likely). I've had more than a few interviews where I > was the only one in the room with suit and tie. Was I > being disrespected???????????????? I have never worn a suit or tie to an interview, but what's wrong with comfortable semi-formal attire? Just being presentable so you can give your prospective employer the confidence that you would be able to represent his/her company in a professional manner? That doesn't require going all out. If someone doesn't really care much for his appearance why should I be confident that he/she is going to care about how he/she portrays or carries the company image? This is purely business and not about being disrespected and if I don't have a certain level that there will be a mutually beneficial relationship with a candidate - whether its based on how he presents himself or otherwise - I just won't hire him, as simple as that. |
Posts: 7 / Nickname: spike / Registered: August 24, 2004 2:43 PM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 27, 2010 0:38 AM
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> I'll agree with that. OTOH, the remark which started this
> sub-thread was specific to not wearing a tie (and suit, > most likely). I've had more than a few interviews where I > was the only one in the room with suit and tie. Was I > being disrespected???????????????? I have never worn a suit or tie to an interview, but what's wrong with comfortable semi-formal attire? Just being presentable so you can give your prospective employer the confidence that you would be able to represent his/her company in a professional manner? That doesn't require going all out. If someone doesn't really care much for his appearance why should I be confident that he/she is going to care about how he/she portrays or carries the company image? |
Posts: 7 / Nickname: garibaldi / Registered: March 3, 2008 1:14 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 28, 2010 6:46 AM
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> I have never worn a suit or tie to an interview,
I have never even owned a suit, let alone wear one to an interview. The last time I wore a tie was probably when I was about 14 to a wedding (I'm now 50). |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 24, 2010 6:39 AM
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Hi Morgan,
Your response is curious. Nearly all candidates understand that the resume is vital in creating the first impression. Most candidates are keenly interested in getting a good job offer. It seems entirely incongruous that a great developer, (coding is just one aspect of development), would represent himself as a poor communicator who is either oblivious to, or careless toward quality. Can you explain why you feel that a resume does not reflect the quality of one's work? Why to do feel the resume does not reflect the candidate's ability to communicate? Maybe I misunderstand what makes a great developer. Is coding all that really matters? How might carelessness, inattention to quality, and poor communication work against one's ability to code well? |
Posts: 37 / Nickname: miata71 / Registered: March 29, 2006 6:09 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 24, 2010 2:04 PM
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> Is
> coding all that really matters? How might carelessness, > inattention to quality, and poor communication work > against one's ability to code well? I have learned from long experience that when a discussion degenerates into rhetorical questions, it is best to move on. And most positions are obtained through networking and connections, not resumes. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 7:55 AM
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> And most positions are obtained through networking and connections, not resumes.
Really? I couldn't find any data to support this. I do know that in the companies I have worked for, the vast majority are not hired via networking and connections. Those that are sourced in that fashion, still went through a stringent hiring process that included evaluating their resumes. It happened to me once. I contacted the CTO of a company who knew me and my work. I was as perfect a fit for the two positions which required some very specialized skills. Still, I went through the entire process. I did receive two offers but I could have screwed the pooch anywhere along the line. That said, I am a firm believer in the value of networks and connections for sourcing. I have worked at several employers who incentivize this by offering large bonuses for referrals. Even then, this type of hiring rarely occurs. Some company situations lend themselves more to network sourcing, but an employer would be foolish to ignore any available data about a prospective employee, including his resume. |
Posts: 37 / Nickname: miata71 / Registered: March 29, 2006 6:09 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 10:14 AM
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> > And most positions are obtained through networking and
> connections, not resumes. > > Really? I couldn't find any data to support this. When I was laid off in late 2008, my company nicely offered placement services, In my case, via Lee-Hecht-Harrison. You'd go to seminars, some of which covered making a good resume, etc. They repeatedly said that over 90% of new positions are found via networking, not via checking web sites and sending resumes cold. Admittedly, I don't know where they got their numbers. Hey, I agree that a clear resume is good, and bad grammar & spelling is a big warning flag. But I think the ability to code, analyze, communicate and work together is hard to show on one piece of paper. Frankly, I don't think "Agile Hiring" is possible, cause it will probably take 6 months to find out what you've got. You can't write a unit test and run it 1 second after hiring. (or 1 second before as a true TDD purist would demand!) A candidate may know all the latest buzzwords and technologies but have no idea how to integrate them into a nice O-O, or SOA or REST or whatever you are using, architecture. They may be so wedded to their buzzwords that when Buzzword++ comes along they can't migrate over to it. I treat Resumes much like advertisements - let the buyer beware. I've seen a lot of perfect resumes from candidates I wouldn't want to work with with a six foot pole. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: funbunny / Registered: September 23, 2003 5:08 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 10:48 AM
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> They repeatedly said that over 90% of new positions are
> found via networking, not via checking web sites and > sending resumes cold. > > Admittedly, I don't know where they got their numbers. The same place Haldane folks (who pretty much invented the genre) did decades ago: they made them up. Haldane got sued rather a bit, and lost rather a bit. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 11:17 AM
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Hi Morgan,
I was in a similar situation with a placement company and they also told me that networking is critical. In our industry, I think networking is very useful getting the candidate to the door, but not often through the door. The placement company dealt with numerous industries, so maybe in other markets, things are different. Think MBA looking for a job. > Frankly, I don't think > "Agile Hiring" is possible, cause it will probably take 6 > months to find out what you've got. The 'agile' principles I understand work very well in the face of uncertainty: environments where information is incomplete, there is noise, and things change. Seems to fit well with hiring. > A candidate may know all the latest buzzwords and > technologies but have no idea how to integrate them into a > nice O-O, or SOA or REST or whatever you are using, > architecture. They may be so wedded to their buzzwords > that when Buzzword++ comes along they can't migrate over > to it. Ah buzzwords. A well-written resume is only that. It makes few promises of the quality of the candidate. A poorly written resume, on the other hand, is solid evidence of the quality of the candidate. Which is the topic of the article. > I treat Resumes much like advertisements - let the buyer > beware. I think a good resume is more than just an advertisement but, yes, buyer beware. Teasing out the quality of the candidate is a different and very large topic. |
Posts: 40 / Nickname: vincent / Registered: November 13, 2002 7:25 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 24, 2010 11:46 PM
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Whilst I agree with the premise of your article, this is basic advice given to all school kids (at least it was in my school many years ago). You've presented the article almost as if this is new advice that applies specifically to software developers who, in turn, are more prone to doing that badly that any other arbitrary group of job seekers. The dissonance between the generality of the advice and the targeting of the audience detracts unhelpfully from the effect of the article.
> Can you explain why you feel that a resume does not > t reflect the quality of one's work? Here's one of many simple reasons why the quality of my work and the quality of my resume may differ: I've been with the same employer for over twenty years. Therefore I have twenty years of experience in my work but have never written a resume in that time. |
Posts: 12 / Nickname: ianr / Registered: April 20, 2007 6:37 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 27, 2010 2:00 PM
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> Here's one of many simple reasons why the quality of my
> work and the quality of my resume may differ: > I've been with the same employer for over twenty years. > Therefore I have twenty years of experience in my work > but have never written a resume in that time. If you need to use a new technology in your job, I'm assuming you wouldn't just wing it, but would first learn enough about to avoid pitfalls of the technology. And no doubt, you would carefully test your code; you might also ask a co-worker to review your code. Similarly, were you to suddenly find that you needed to write a resume, I'm assuming you would practice similar diligence in researching basic resume practices, and would take the time to proofread your resume, and perhaps have a trusted confidant review it before sending it out. |
Posts: 40 / Nickname: vincent / Registered: November 13, 2002 7:25 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 27, 2010 11:43 PM
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> ...you wouldn't just wing it...
Certainly. Other people check the work I do day to day and it would be no different on a resume. Nevertheless, the unwritten subtitle of my resume would still be "My First Resume". I'm not seeking to contradict the advice given in the original article here, merely giving one answer to the question of why the quality of my work and the quality of my resume might differ. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: funbunny / Registered: September 23, 2003 5:08 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 24, 2010 5:04 PM
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> Hi Morgan,
> Your response is curious. Nearly all candidates understand > that the resume is vital in creating the first impression. First impressions are notoriously wrong, and matter only when the impressed is shallow. > Most candidates are keenly interested in getting a good > job offer. Most smart candidates are keenly interested in working with folks who view the development process with like biases. Beware candidates who do it just to pay for a lifestyle. It seems entirely incongruous that a great > developer, (coding is just one aspect of development), > would represent himself as a poor communicator who is > either oblivious to, or careless toward quality. Most "resume reviews" seek only to enforce the format du jour. "Poor communication" mostly boils down to violating said format du jour. Hirers who care about such trivia aren't worth working for. Shallow is as shallow does. > > Can you explain why you feel that a resume does not > t reflect the quality of one's work? A resume's only purpose is to convey both past work and future efforts. Why to do feel the > resume does not reflect the candidate's ability to > communicate? Again, Hemingway and Joyce are recognized as great writers, but I'd wager that more have actually read Hemingway than Joyce. That doesn't mean Joyce is a poor communicator, only that his format doesn't meet the demands of lazy readers. > > Maybe I misunderstand what makes a great developer. Is > coding all that really matters? How might carelessness, > inattention to quality, and poor communication work > against one's ability to code well? Again, you really, really, really haven't defined poor communication in an objective way. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 5:21 AM
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Robert,
> Beware candidates who do it just to pay for a > lifestyle. Indeed. > It seems entirely incongruous that a great > > developer, (coding is just one aspect of development), > > would represent himself as a poor communicator who is > > either oblivious to, or careless toward quality. > Most "resume reviews" seek only to enforce the format du > jour. "Poor communication" mostly boils down to violating > said format du jour. Hirers who care about such trivia > aren't worth working for. Shallow is as shallow does. That's not what I am saying. I stated that format preferences should NOT be misconstrued as poor communication (although I have seen some really bad formatting!). A resume that communicates well is information-rich. It tells a story about the candidate. > A resume's only purpose is to convey both past work and > future efforts. That's nonsense. First, You can't covey future efforts. I think what you mean is that the facts in a resume communicate future potential. Second, a resume is a work product - something created by the candidate - and therefore a reflection of some of her abilities. The foolish candidate may believe that the sole purpose is to document her past work, but the skilled reviewer will glean much more from it. > That doesn't mean Joyce is a poor > communicator, only that his format doesn't meet the > demands of lazy readers. Grammar and spelling are not format. Neither are incomplete sentences, ambiguous statements, vague descriptions, or missing data. What if we never found out what happened to the fisherman in "The Old Man and the Sea?" That would be poor communication. The book is about a guy and a fish, yet it is a fascinating story. The critics took a while to warm up to Hemmingway's style, but they could not deny his storytelling ability. > Again, you really, really, really haven't defined poor > communication in an objective way. Communication is not objective, but I think there are some key indicators of poor communication in the context of a resume. I mentioned most of them above and in the article. If the resume doesn't convey what the user did, that's a fundamental problem. Beyond that, if the resume shows that the candidate is careless, leaves out important information, cannot put together complete concepts, and cannot convey the value he brought to positions in his job history, that's bad communication. It also is evidence of broader issues. Final point, a well-written resume doesn't get you a job. But it may just get you to the next phase of the interview process. |
Posts: 62 / Nickname: zbo / Registered: January 20, 2007 9:22 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 27, 2010 7:02 AM
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It seems like there are two sides to this argument. But really the two sides can't see a much easier resolution.
Just pay somebody who is a professional resume writer to write the resume for you. Recoup the costs of the hired gun in your signing bonus. Problem solved. Adam Smith's division of labor at proud work. That means you can take the $20 you might spend on Sean's book or Programming Interviews Exposed, and put it towards a book on F# to update your skills in the changing job market. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: funbunny / Registered: September 23, 2003 5:08 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 27, 2010 8:39 AM
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> put it towards
> a book on F# to update your skills in the changing job > market. A "me too" functional language from a moribund company? |
Posts: 62 / Nickname: zbo / Registered: January 20, 2007 9:22 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 27, 2010 9:26 AM
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*buttons his top collar to avoid being judged by Cameron as lazy*
Ahem, F# is shorter to type than Scala. Besides, ideally you won't be learning just a language, but understanding concurrency & coordination primitives. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: funbunny / Registered: September 23, 2003 5:08 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 10:44 AM
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> > A resume's only purpose is to convey both past work and
> > future efforts. > > That's nonsense. First, You can't covey future efforts. Of course you can. You must. What's the standard interview question: what do you want to be doing in 5 years? Yes??? Of course. The resume is the first place you tell prospective employers where you want to go. Future efforts. > I > think what you mean is that the facts in a resume > communicate future potential. No. Future work. Second, a resume is a work > product - something created by the candidate - and > therefore a reflection of some of her abilities. The > foolish candidate may believe that the sole purpose is to > document her past work, but the skilled reviewer will > glean much more from it. > > > That doesn't mean Joyce is a poor > > communicator, only that his format doesn't meet the > > demands of lazy readers. > > Grammar and spelling are not format. Neither are > incomplete sentences, ambiguous statements, vague > descriptions, or missing data. The format du jour is bullet point. nothing but incomplete sentences. |
Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
July 25, 2010 11:28 AM
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Hi Robert,
> > That's nonsense. First, You can't covey future efforts. > > Of course you can. You must. What's the standard > interview question: what do you want to be doing in 5 > years? Yes??? Of course. The resume is the first place > you tell prospective employers where you want to go. > Future efforts. I differentiate between the candidate's desires, and candidate's capability when trying to read the future. I am a big fan of hiring senior people so it is a standard question to ask what the candidate's career intentions are, e.g., management or technology. On the other hand, the candidate's career history draws a trajectory that can be extrapolated into the future. This is just as interesting to me as the candidate's stated desires. > The format du jour is bullet point. nothing but > incomplete sentences. I do not find that to be the case. But I have only read about 1000 resumes in the last four years so it's a pretty small sample. |
Posts: 1 / Nickname: maverick12 / Registered: September 26, 2010 3:33 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
September 26, 2010 8:40 AM
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yeah....i do agree with it...
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Posts: 2 / Nickname: dblackner / Registered: September 9, 2010 9:30 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
September 9, 2010 3:36 PM
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A sloppy resume' is my first insight into the mind of my potential employee. That said, I usually take glorious resume' with a grain of salt. These days, employees have a wealth of tools and programs with which to create an amazing document, and can cleverly craft a resume' that engenders a positive response from the employer. That is why I cannot overstress the importance of a face to face interview. Of course this is my personal hiring style, but I feel that you can tell infinitely more about someone when speaking in person. Not only can you ask questions about practical knowledge (someone earlier was saying that he balked under the pressure of a face to face interview, which is understandable and I would of course make allowances for that personality type) but you can really get a feel for someone as a person and how they would gel with your team. A sloppy resume' is an initial red flag, but it is not the end all for me. When you are expecting a team member to perform under pressure 60 hour weeks (we've all been there) it is more important to me that they are a solid person, not just someone who can craft an elegant resume'.
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Posts: 35 / Nickname: seanl / Registered: March 8, 2002 5:57 AM
Re: Are Sloppy Résumés OK?
September 26, 2010 11:11 AM
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David,
I agree. A sloppy resume speaks more than a neat resume. That said, there seems to be a correlation between sloppy and poor content, and neat and solid content. I am always wary of the sweet smelling candidate that is really a stinker. They can do more harm to a team/organization than a plain old bad employee. |