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Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

25 replies on 2 pages. Most recent reply: May 10, 2010 4:26 PM by t c

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Flat View: This topic has 25 replies on 2 pages [ « | 1 2 ]

robert young

Posts: 361
Nickname: funbunny
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 29, 2010 8:37 AM

Reply

Advertisement

> > It ain't new. IBM was run that way until the DoJ (not
> > your Reagan's DoJ, of course) put a stop to it. Well,
> > sort of. The existence of mini-computers, and thence
> the
> > PC, had as much to do with bringing IBM to heel as the
> > gummint.
>
> It may not be new, but this approach was definitely on the
> wane (outside of video game consoles), until Apple
> reinvigorated it.

That's a Roger, 10-4.

robert young

Posts: 361
Nickname: funbunny
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 29, 2010 8:42 AM

Reply

> Umm .. because an cell phone is not a house?
>
> Let's not go overboard with our comparisons ..
>
> -jb

It may not be. AOL, then M$, tried to lockup the desktop internet; neither, fortunately, succeeded. Apple is trying to lockup the mobile internet. So long as their client-side widgets and protocols are the only ones which implement the semantic of mobile internet, then they win. The key is to keep that from happening. By establishing a de facto standard (as M$ did 25 years ago), Apple will win.

Those who apologize for Apple have to show that Apple isn't and can't get away with it.

Cameron Purdy

Posts: 186
Nickname: cpurdy
Registered: Dec, 2004

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 29, 2010 9:03 AM

Reply

> Tim Bray is right. Freedom is not optional. But Jaron
> Lanier is also right that without a sound economical base
> you will get a herd of peasants serving their feudal
> lords, not free citizens. Who will solve this
> contradiction? Certainly not Apple, which is just the
> evil, old, exploitative capitalist in this game. But will
> Google solve it for you? I guess not either.

Not unless the solution is more advertising .. ;-)

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle Coherence
http://coherence.oracle.com/

robert young

Posts: 361
Nickname: funbunny
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 29, 2010 10:56 AM

Reply

> By establishing
> a de facto standard (as M$ did 25 years ago), Apple will
> win.

Let me clarify. Lotus built 1-2-3 only once, in M$ assembler, because they could afford to write to only one of the three OS's available for the IBM/PC. In doing so, by creating a killer app for a M$ based PC, Lotus handed the desktop to M$. Apple is attempting to define de facto standards, walled off by their patents, for the mobile internet.

Andy Dent

Posts: 165
Nickname: andydent
Registered: Nov, 2005

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 29, 2010 6:53 PM

Reply

> Apple is trying to lockup the mobile internet. So long as their
> client-side widgets and protocols are the only ones which
> implement the semantic of mobile internet, then they win.

I don't understand your statement. What is the "semantic of mobile internet"?

Unless someone can inform me otherwise, the only thing Apple restrict based on content is what applications you can run as installed applications on an iPhone/Touch/iPad.

They don't restrict any content from the internet because of its nature.

They restrict some technologies (Flash, Java and Silverlight) but support standards such as HTML 5 and JavaScript and are major contributors to WebKit.

I would not be surprised to see Silverlight on the iPhone but never Flash.

robert young

Posts: 361
Nickname: funbunny
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 30, 2010 12:25 PM

Reply

> > Apple is trying to lockup the mobile internet. So long
> as their
> > client-side widgets and protocols are the only ones
> which
> > implement the semantic of mobile internet, then they
> win.
>
> I don't understand your statement. What is the "semantic
> of mobile internet"?

That's not yet been decided, which is the crux of the issue. First and foremost, Apple is trying to restrict "multi-touch" to only their devices. They claim patent protection. By outing Flash, they remove a dirt common way of running a page. HTML 5 is years away, in any case. If Apple can persuade devs to "expect" multi-touch (and any other Apple-only features) on the client, then they've won, just as M$ did with IE.

Just as M$ imposed its notion of html/javascript through IE and thus determined the semantics of browser apps, so Apple is trying to do worse with its devices. By moving from an open, albeit kludgy, browser semantic, to one based on "native apps", Apple seeks to balkanize the mobile internet, just as M$ tried and succeeded (largely) with the desktop internet, and to do what M$ did: he who controls the OS controls everything. That is Apple's goal (or for the dyslexic, gaol).

What have I gotten wrong?

Dick Ford

Posts: 149
Nickname: roybatty
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 30, 2010 6:33 PM

Reply

> > > Apple is trying to lockup the mobile internet. So
> long
> > as their
> > > client-side widgets and protocols are the only ones
> > which
> > > implement the semantic of mobile internet, then they
> > win.
> >
> > I don't understand your statement. What is the
> "semantic
> > of mobile internet"?
>
> That's not yet been decided, which is the crux of the
> issue. First and foremost, Apple is trying to restrict
> "multi-touch" to only their devices. They claim patent
> protection. By outing Flash, they remove a dirt common
> way of running a page. HTML 5 is years away, in any case.
> If Apple can persuade devs to "expect" multi-touch (and
> d any other Apple-only features) on the client, then
> they've won, just as M$ did with IE.
>
> Just as M$ imposed its notion of html/javascript through
> IE and thus determined the semantics of browser apps, so
> Apple is trying to do worse with its devices. By moving
> from an open, albeit kludgy, browser semantic, to one
> based on "native apps", Apple seeks to balkanize the
> mobile internet, just as M$ tried and succeeded (largely)
> with the desktop internet, and to do what M$ did: he who
> controls the OS controls everything. That is Apple's goal
> (or for the dyslexic, gaol).
>
> What have I gotten wrong?

What you have got wrong is when you're not busy imposing your leftist political motives on some bits, you degrade yourself by using M$, like some Slashdork from 1999.

You leftists can't help yourselves, can you Robert?

Fred Finkelstein

Posts: 48
Nickname: marsilya
Registered: Jun, 2008

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 31, 2010 8:12 AM

Reply

>> What you have got wrong is when you're not busy
>> imposing your leftist political motives on some bits,
>> you degrade yourself by using M$, like some Slashdork
>> from 1999.

This is a personal argumentation - nothing to do with his arguments. You could also say: You're fat so you are wrong.

Concerning the issue I think that buying a hardware which you have not 100% control of is odd. I would rather buy a mobile phone where I can install software I want. Why should Apple decide which software I get?
But if people want to go into prison why not allow them to do so? There are also people who marry. By choice...

robert young

Posts: 361
Nickname: funbunny
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 31, 2010 9:42 AM

Reply

> But if people want to go into prison why not allow them to
> do so? There are also people who marry. By choice...

Again, here's the money quote from Mr. Bray:

>> The big thing about the Web isn’t the technology, it’s that it’s the first-ever platform without a vendor (credit for first pointing this out goes to Dave Winer).

I've only pointed out that Apple's goal is to make the iStuff the de facto standard for the mobile web, walled garden of many delights. Allowing a few of uninformed consumers to enable Apple's stranglehold is bad public policy. If only the unwashed are affected, that's one thing. The issue is that the unwashed give the rest of us fleas. (Just to vex Mr. Ford: a few wingnuts running the Texas schoolbook board have, among other things, decided to remove Thomas Jefferson from American history textbooks; if only inbred knuckleheads in Texas were the recipients of such stupid education, that would be OK with me, but publishers tend to cave to Texas due to its large number of students [do the inbred breed more?? I don't know.] One fringe group of morons shouldn't be allowed to dictate to the rest of us. Same with Apple, its pawns, and the mobile web.)

Howard Lovatt

Posts: 321
Nickname: hlovatt
Registered: Mar, 2003

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: Mar 31, 2010 11:56 PM

Reply

> The iPhone vision of the mobile Internet’s future
> omits controversy, sex, and freedom, but includes
> strict limits on who can know what and who can
> say what. It’s a sterile Disney-fied walled garden
> surrounded by sharp-toothed lawyers. The
> people who create the apps serve at the
> landlord’s pleasure and fear his anger.

Don't you think this is a bit overboard.

There are many happy developers who have done well off Apple. There are many happy iPhone users who value getting software that is useful and trouble free. Apple doesn't stop you visiting any 'edgy' web sites.

It is simply a positioning of their product in a particular market niche. Good for Google that they are going for a different niche. Competition is good, let the market decide.

t c

Posts: 1
Nickname: tcc
Registered: May, 2010

Re: Tim Bray on Android versus iPhone

Posted: May 10, 2010 4:26 PM

Reply

i recently posted my thoughts on android vs iphone development
http://tommy.chheng.com/index.php/2010/05/android-and-iphone-development-thoughts/

one of the problems i noticed is that while android is easy to code for, it's hard to make a good looking UI on the android. On the iphone, it's hard to make a horrible UI. iPhone sdk comes with a better defaults and tools for UI creation. Android needs to improve on this aspect.

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